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Sorry to import another mathematical problem from the Digital Signal Processing domain. I will try to pose the problem using notation mostly conventional for general mathematicians, not just electrical engineers. This is a discrete-time problem (but continuous-frequency).

So we have a discrete-time sequence of real numbers:

$$ x_n \in \mathbb{R} \qquad \qquad n \in \mathbb{Z} $$

The Discrete-Time Fourier Transform (or "DTFT") is

$$X(e^{i\omega}) = \mathscr{F} \Big\{ x_n \Big\} = \sum\limits_{n=-\infty}^{\infty} x_n \, e^{-i \omega n} \qquad \qquad \omega \in \mathbb{R}$$

It's essentially just the Z-transform with $z = e^{i\omega}$. Because $x_n$ is discrete time,

$$X(e^{i(\omega+ 2\pi)} ) = X(e^{i\omega}) \qquad \qquad \forall \omega \in \mathbb{R}$$

and because $x_n$ is real,

$$X(e^{i(-\omega)}) = \overline{X(e^{i\omega})}$$

where $\overline{z}$ is the complex conjugate of $z$. So because of the periodicity in $\omega$, we will generally only worry about $-\pi < \omega \le \pi$. And the description of $X(e^{i\omega})$ for $0 \le \omega \le \pi$ is sufficient to describe the real $x_n$.

The DTFT maps functions of discrete time (or sequences) to functions of periodic continuous frequency. The inverse DTFT maps it back.

Now, the Discrete-time Hilbert Transform maps a function of discrete time to another function of discrete time:

$$\begin{align} \hat{x}_n &= \mathscr{H} \Big\{ x_n \Big\} \\ \\ &= \sum\limits_{m=-\infty}^{\infty} \frac{1-(-1)^m}{\pi \ m} \ x_{n-m} \\ \\ &= \sum\limits_{m=-\infty}^{-1} \frac{1-(-1)^m}{\pi \ m} \ x_{n-m} + \sum\limits_{m=1}^{\infty} \frac{1-(-1)^m}{\pi \ m} \ x_{n-m} \\ \\ &= \sum\limits_{m=1}^{\infty} \frac{1-(-1)^m}{\pi \ m} \ \big( x_{n-m} - \ x_{n+m} \big) \\ \end{align}$$

So we're resolving the $\frac{1-(-1)^m}{\pi \ m} \bigg|_{m=0}$ term to be zero for $m=0$. There are good reasons for this including that all other even $m$ terms in the summation are zero. So we could also say:

$$\begin{align} \hat{x}_n &= \mathscr{H}\Big\{ x_n \Big\} \\ \\ &= \sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{2}{\pi \ (2m+1)} \ \big( x_{n-2m-1} - \ x_{n+2m+1} \big) \\ \end{align}$$

I dunno if that's helpful or not.

Now the DTFT of the Hilbert transform of $x_n$ turns out to be:

$$\begin{align} \hat{X}(e^{i\omega}) &= \mathscr{F} \Big\{ \hat{x}_n \Big\} \\ \\ &= \sum\limits_{n=-\infty}^{\infty} \hat{x}_n \, e^{-i \omega n} \\ \\ &= -i \operatorname{sgn}(\omega) X(e^{i\omega}) \\ \\ &= \begin{cases} i X(e^{i\omega}) \qquad & -\pi < \omega < 0 \\ 0 \qquad & \omega = 0 \\ -i X(e^{i\omega}) \qquad & 0 < \omega < \pi \\ \end{cases} \\ \end{align}$$

The Hilbert transform essentially kills DC and delays every sinusoid by 90°, preserving their amplitude:

$$ \mathscr{H} \Big\{A \cos(\Omega n + \theta) \Big\} = A \sin(\Omega n + \theta) $$

Now there is one last preliminary definition. Given a real, discrete-time signal $x_n$, the complex Analytic signal is:

$$ {}^\mathrm{a}x_n = x_n + i\, \hat{x}_n $$

And the DTFT of the complex analytic signal is

$$\begin{align} {}^\mathrm{a}X(e^{i\omega}) = \mathscr{F} \Big\{ {}^\mathrm{a}x_n \Big\} &= \big(1 + \operatorname{sgn}(\omega) \big) X(e^{i\omega}) \\ \\ &= \begin{cases} 0 \qquad \qquad & -\pi < \omega < 0 \\ X(e^{i\omega}) \qquad \qquad & \omega = 0 \\ 2 X(e^{i\omega}) \qquad \qquad & 0 < \omega < \pi \\ \end{cases} \end{align}$$

These are all the preliminary definitions and relationships.


So the specific question I have to ask stems from this question and solution in the DSP Stack Exchange regarding deriving the Instantaneous frequency of an arbitrary real discrete-time signal $x_n$.

We know that when $x_n$ is a general sinusoid (having $0<\Omega<\pi$):

$$\begin{align} x_n &= A \cos(\Omega n + \theta) \\ \\ &= \frac{A}{2}\big( e^{i(\Omega n + \theta)} + e^{-i(\Omega n + \theta)} \big) \\ \end{align}$$

that the Hilbert transform will be:

$$\begin{align} \hat{x}_n &= A \sin(\Omega n + \theta) \\ \\ &= \frac{A}{2i}\big( e^{i(\Omega n + \theta)} - e^{-i(\Omega n + \theta)} \big) \\ \end{align}$$

and the analytic signal will be:

$$ {}^\mathrm{a}x_n = A \, e^{i(\Omega n + \theta)} $$

The instantaneous phase is defined to be the angle ($\arg\{\cdot\}$) of the complex analytic function:

$$ \phi_n = \arg \big\{ {}^\mathrm{a}x_n \big\}$$

which for the general sinusoid above is $ \phi_n = \Omega n + \theta$.

And the instantaneous frequency (a function of discrete-time $n$) is defined to be the rate of increment of the properly unwrapped phase:

$$\begin{align} \Omega_n &= \phi_n - \phi_{n-1} \\ \\ &= \arg\big\{ {}^\mathrm{a}x_n \big\} - \arg\big\{ {}^\mathrm{a}x_{n-1} \big\} \\ \\ &= \arg\left\{ \frac{ {}^\mathrm{a}x_n }{ {}^\mathrm{a}x_{n-1} } \right\} \\ \\ &= \arg\left\{ \frac{ {}^\mathrm{a}x_n \, \overline{{}^\mathrm{a}x_{n-1}} }{ {}^\mathrm{a}x_{n-1} \, \overline{{}^\mathrm{a}x_{n-1}}} \right\} \\ \\ &= \arg\left\{ \frac{ {}^\mathrm{a}x_n \, \overline{{}^\mathrm{a}x_{n-1}} }{ \big| {}^\mathrm{a}x_{n-1} \big|^2 } \right\} \\ \\ &= \arg\left\{ {}^\mathrm{a}x_n \, \overline{{}^\mathrm{a}x_{n-1}} \right\} \\ \\ &= \arg\left\{ \big(x_n + i\, \hat{x}_n\big) \big(x_{n-1} - i\, \hat{x}_{n-1}\big) \right\} \\ \\ &= \arg\left\{ x_n x_{n-1} + \hat{x}_n \hat{x}_{n-1} + i\big(\hat{x}_n x_{n-1} - x_n \hat{x}_{n-1}\big) \right\} \\ \end{align} $$

Now we really expect $0 < \Omega_n < \pi$ to be positive because there are no frequency components in the analytic signal ${}^\mathrm{a}x_n$ that are negative frequency (at least no components of ${}^\mathrm{a}X(e^{i\omega})=\mathscr{F} \big\{ {}^\mathrm{a}x_n \big\}$ in the interval $-\pi < \omega < 0$).

If we can know that $0 < \Omega_n < \pi$, then we need only the second case (quadrants I and II) for the $\arg\{\cdot\}$ operator. For both $u, v \in \mathbb{R}$,

$$ \arg\big\{ w \big\} = \arg \big\{ u \, + \, i \, v \big\} = \begin{cases} \arctan\left(\frac{v}{u}\right) &\text{if } u > 0, \\ \frac{\pi}{2} - \arctan\left(\frac{u}{v}\right) &\text{if } v > 0, \\ -\frac{\pi}{2} - \arctan\left(\frac{u}{v}\right) &\text{if } v < 0, \\ \arctan\left(\frac{v}{u}\right) \pm \pi &\text{if } u < 0, \\ \text{undefined} &\text{if } u = 0 \text{ and } v = 0 \end{cases} $$

Then, if we know that $v = \hat{x}_n x_{n-1} - x_n \hat{x}_{n-1} > 0$, then

$$ \boxed{ \Omega_n = \frac{\pi}{2} - \arctan\left( \frac{x_n x_{n-1} + \hat{x}_n \hat{x}_{n-1}}{\hat{x}_n x_{n-1} - x_n \hat{x}_{n-1}} \right) } $$

and we know that $0 < \Omega_n < \pi$. (!)

But do we know that?

So given any real, discrete-time sequence $x_n$ (not entirely zero nor any constant function and not necessarily a single sinusoid) and its Hilbert transform

$$\begin{align} \hat{x}_n &= \mathscr{H} \Big\{ x_n \Big\} \\ \\ &= \sum\limits_{m=-\infty}^{\infty} \frac{1-(-1)^m}{\pi \ m} \ x_{n-m} \\ \\ &= \sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{2}{\pi \ (2m+1)} \ \big( x_{n-2m-1} - \ x_{n+2m+1} \big) \\ \end{align}$$

How can we show that $\hat{x}_n x_{n-1} - x_n \hat{x}_{n-1} > 0$? Or that

$$\begin{align} x_n \hat{x}_{n-1} &< \hat{x}_n x_{n-1} \qquad \qquad \forall n \in \mathbb{Z} \\ \\ x_n \sum\limits_{m=-\infty}^{\infty} \frac{1-(-1)^m}{\pi \ m} \ x_{n-1-m} &< x_{n-1} \sum\limits_{m=-\infty}^{\infty} \frac{1-(-1)^m}{\pi \ m} \ x_{n-m} \\ \\ x_n \sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{2}{\pi \ (2m+1)} \ \big( x_{n-2m-2} - \ x_{n+2m} \big) &< x_{n-1} \sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{2}{\pi \ (2m+1)} \ \big( x_{n-2m-1} - \ x_{n+2m+1} \big) \\ \\ x_n \sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{1}{2m+1} \ \big( x_{n-2m-2} - \ x_{n+2m} \big) &< x_{n-1} \sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{1}{2m+1} \ \big( x_{n-2m-1} - \ x_{n+2m+1} \big) \\ \\ \sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{x_n x_{n-2m-2} - \ x_n x_{n+2m}}{2m+1} &< \sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{x_{n-1} x_{n-2m-1} - \ x_{n-1} x_{n+2m+1}}{2m+1} \qquad \forall n \in \mathbb{Z} \\ \end{align}$$

or $$0 < \sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{x_{n-1} x_{n-2m-1} - \ x_{n-1} x_{n+2m+1} - x_n x_{n-2m-2} + \ x_n x_{n+2m}}{2m+1} \qquad \forall n \in \mathbb{Z} $$

How can I prove that this is true for a nearly arbitrary (not constant) real infinite sequence $x_n$? Or a good counter example to disprove it?

I can show it's true for a general sinusoid $x_n = A \cos(\Omega n + \theta)$ when $0<\Omega<\pi$. I know it's not true for $x_n=\mathrm{constant}$ (that's $\Omega=0$) or $x_n=(-1)^n$ (that's $\Omega=\pi$) or any linear combination because the Hilbert transform $\hat{x}_n=0$ (signals at DC or Nyquist are known to be funky), but I dunno how to deal with this for a virtually general real $x_n$. What conditions on $x_n$ guarantee this to be true? Or to be false?


Okay, I have started a bounty and I will attempt again to state the question/problem unambiguously.

Given any sequence of finite real numbers:

$$ x_n \in \mathbb{R} \qquad \qquad n \in \mathbb{Z} $$

except those sequences having this form:

$$ x_n = a + b(-1)^n \qquad \qquad a,b \in \mathbb{R} $$

what conditions on $x_n$ are necessary so that this inequality is satisfied:

$$ x_n \sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{2}{\pi \ (2m+1)} \ \big( x_{n-2m-2} - \ x_{n+2m} \big) < x_{n-1} \sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{2}{\pi \ (2m+1)} \ \big( x_{n-2m-1} - \ x_{n+2m+1} \big) \qquad \forall n \in \mathbb{Z} $$

?

  • Sorry, just trying to understand your question - are you asking that given that the spectrum has no negative components, does it imply that the instantaneous frequency is strictly positive? – Srini Oct 09 '25 at 03:37
  • The converse is not true surely, given a constant instantaneous frequency (like for a pure tone), it's spectrum has both positive and negative components. Not sure why one implies another. But I could have completely misinterpreted your post – Srini Oct 09 '25 at 03:41
  • "...are you asking that given that the spectrum has no negative components, does it imply that the instantaneous frequency is strictly positive?" - - - - Yes! That is the bottom line. – robert bristow-johnson Oct 09 '25 at 03:44
  • " ... given a constant instantaneous frequency (like for a pure tone), it's spectrum has both positive and negative components." - - - - - Yes, that is true. But the spectrum of the Analytic signal has only positive components (assuming no DC). – robert bristow-johnson Oct 09 '25 at 03:46
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    Spectrum of DTFT is $2\pi$ periodic. The choice to see it as $[-\pi,\pi]$ is just as valid as seeing it as $[0,2\pi]$. In both cases analytical signal has only spectrum defined for half of the full range. But in latter convention, all the frequencies are anyway positive. All I am trying to say is spectrum sign is a bit arbitrary in DTFT, but instantaneous frequency sign is more concrete and physical property of the signal. But I am happy to learn something new from this post. A topic I am interested in! – Srini Oct 09 '25 at 04:03
  • So given that $x_n \in \mathbb{R}$, is this true:

    $$x_n \sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{2}{\pi \ (2m+1)} \ \big( x_{n-2m-2} - \ x_{n+2m} \big) < x_{n-1} \sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{2}{\pi \ (2m+1)} \ \big( x_{n-2m-1} - \ x_{n+2m+1} \big) $$

    ?

    – robert bristow-johnson Oct 09 '25 at 04:10
  • $$\sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{2}{\pi \ (2m+1)} \ \big( x_n x_{n-2m-2} - \ x_n x_{n+2m} \big) < \sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{2}{\pi \ (2m+1)} \ \big(x_{n-1} x_{n-2m-1} - \ x_{n-1} x_{n+2m+1} \big) $$ or $$\sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{2}{\pi \ (2m+1)} \ \big( x_n x_{n-2m-2} + x_{n-1} x_{n+2m+1} \big) < \sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{2}{\pi \ (2m+1)} \ \big(x_{n-1} x_{n-2m-1} + x_n x_{n+2m} \big) $$ – robert bristow-johnson Oct 09 '25 at 04:12
  • I wonder if we could show, term-by-term that

    $$x_n x_{n-2m-2} + x_{n-1} x_{n+2m+1} < x_{n-1} x_{n-2m-1} + x_n x_{n+2m}$$ ?

    Probably not.

    – robert bristow-johnson Oct 09 '25 at 04:18
  • No, I can extend my argument in the same way that I can map it to $[-2\pi,0]$ which is always negative for all signals, but clearly it doesn't preclude a signal from having a positive instantaneous frequency. So I want to leave it at this that these are unrelated in my opinion. Anyway the bot is threatening to move the conversation to chat. I better stop – Srini Oct 09 '25 at 04:20

3 Answers3

2

You wrote

$$0 < \sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{x_{n-1} x_{n-2m-1} - \ x_{n-1} x_{n+2m+1} - x_n x_{n-2m-2} + \ x_n x_{n+2m}}{2m+1} \qquad \forall n \in \mathbb{Z} $$

and

How can I prove that this is true for a nearly arbitrary (not constant) real infinite sequence $x_n$ ? Or a good counter example to disprove it?

I think there are infinitely many counterexamples.

If $\{x_n\}$ satisfies the followings :

  • $x_1\gt 0$

  • If $n\ge 0$ is even, $x_n\gt 0$

  • If $n\ge 3$ is odd, $x_n\lt 0$

  • If $n\le -1$ is odd, $x_n\gt 0$

  • If $n\le -2$ is even, $x_n\lt 0$

  • $x_0=x_1$

  • $2x_{0}-x_2-x_{-1}\lt 0$

then, for $n=1$, the inequality does not hold.

This is because for $n=1$, $$\sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{x_{n-1} x_{n-2m-1} - \ x_{n-1} x_{n+2m+1} - x_n x_{n-2m-2} + \ x_n x_{n+2m}}{2m+1} $$ can be written as $$\underbrace{x_0(2x_{0} - x_{2} - x_{-1})}_{\text{negative}}+\sum\limits_{m=\color{red}1}^{\infty} \frac{\overbrace{x_0(x_{-2m} - x_{2m+2})}^{\text{negative}}+ \overbrace{x_0(- x_{-2m-1} + x_{2m+1})}^{\text{negative}}}{2m+1}$$ which is negative.


Added :

what conditions on $x_n$ are necessary so that this inequality is satisfied:$$ x_n \sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{2}{\pi \ (2m+1)} \ \big( x_{n-2m-2} - \ x_{n+2m} \big) < x_{n-1} \sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{2}{\pi \ (2m+1)} \ \big( x_{n-2m-1} - \ x_{n+2m+1} \big) \qquad \forall n \in \mathbb{Z} $$

I'm going to write my observation which may help.

The inequality is equivalent to $$x_n\sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{x_{n-2m-2} - x_{n+2m}}{2m+1} < x_{n-1}\sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{x_{n-2m-1} - x_{n+2m+1}}{2m+1}$$

For $n=1$, we have to have $$x_1\sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{x_{-2m-1} - x_{2m+1}}{2m+1} < x_0\color{red}{\sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{x_{-2m} - x_{2m+2}}{2m+1}}\tag1$$

For $n=2$, we have to have $$x_2\color{red}{\sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty}\frac{x_{-2m} - x_{2m+2}}{2m+1}} < x_1\sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{x_{-2m+1} - x_{2m+3}}{2m+1}\tag2$$

So, if both $x_0$ and $x_2$ are positive, then we have

$$\frac{x_1}{x_0}\sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{x_{-2m-1} - x_{2m+1}}{2m+1} < \color{red}{\sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{x_{-2m} - x_{2m+2}}{2m+1}} < \frac{x_1}{x_2}\sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{x_{-2m+1} - x_{2m+3}}{2m+1}$$ from which we get $$\frac{x_1}{x_0}\sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{x_{-2m-1} - x_{2m+1}}{2m+1} < \frac{x_1}{x_2}\sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{x_{-2m+1} - x_{2m+3}}{2m+1}$$ So, if $x_1\gt 0$, then $$x_2\sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{x_{-2m-1} - x_{2m+1}}{2m+1} < x_0\color{blue}{\sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{x_{-2m+1} - x_{2m+3}}{2m+1}}$$

If $x_1\lt 0$, then $$x_2\sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{x_{-2m-1} - x_{2m+1}}{2m+1} \color{red}{\gt} x_0\color{blue}{\sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{x_{-2m+1} - x_{2m+3}}{2m+1}}$$

For $n=3$, we have to have $$x_3\color{blue}{\sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \color{blue}{\frac{x_{-2m+1} - x_{2m+3}}{2m+1}}} < x_{2}\sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{x_{-2m+2} - x_{2m+4}}{2m+1}\tag3$$

So, if $x_1x_0x_3\gt 0$, then we get another inequality on the sum in blue.

(comments : Even when both $x_0$ and $x_2$ are negative, similar inequalities can be obtained.)

Of course, if $x_0\color{red}{\sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{x_{-2m} - x_{2m+2}}{2m+1}}\lt x_2\color{red}{\sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty}\frac{x_{-2m} - x_{2m+2}}{2m+1}}$, i.e. we have either

  • $\color{red}{\sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{x_{-2m} - x_{2m+2}}{2m+1}}\gt 0$ and $x_0\lt x_2$

  • $\color{red}{\sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{x_{-2m} - x_{2m+2}}{2m+1}}\lt 0$ and $x_0\gt x_2$

then we get $$x_1\sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{x_{-2m-1} - x_{2m+1}}{2m+1}\lt x_1\color{blue}{\sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{x_{-2m+1} - x_{2m+3}}{2m+1}}$$ You can divide the both sides by $x_1$, and with $(3)$, we get another inequality on the sum in blue.

These mean that we can get many similar necessary conditions (inequalities) because of the form of our inequality.

mathlove
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  • Hay mathlove, I'm kinda a socialist. Even though your answer directly supplied a counter-example (I was still hoping for something more broad, like if ${}^\mathrm{a}H(e^{i\omega n})=0$ except for $-\frac{\pi}{3} < \omega < \frac{2 \pi}{3}$ it's true or something like that) but you did answer the question. I'd like to give Srini the bounty because you don't need it. Is that okay? – robert bristow-johnson Oct 17 '25 at 22:11
  • My situation is not that I can save the bounty. I spent the bounty 6 days ago when I put up the bounty. I ain't getting it back and I knew that to start with. I'm gonna be awarding the bounty in 14 hours anyway. You came up with a specific counter-example. I understand that. So did Srini, but time-stamped later. It's just that I'll feel better giving adding it to 2008 (where it makes a 15% difference) than adding it to 154392 (where it makes 0.2% difference). – robert bristow-johnson Oct 18 '25 at 04:25
  • I just was hoping for a more general conditions for when I could expect that the instantaneous frequency will be positive. Right now, all I can say is that when it's a single sinusoid, having any amplitude, frequency, and phase, it will come out as positive. But I suspect there are many other signals. However I do see that there are also analytic signals that have a negative instantaneous frequency that is negative, which means the instantaneous phase decreased from one sample to the next. But it's an analytic signal, so there should be only positive-frequency components. – robert bristow-johnson Oct 18 '25 at 04:38
  • Also, I said that wrong. I see that in the inequality in question, there are sample pairs being multiplied. That means there is a convolution going on in the frequency domain which widens the bandwidth. If ${}^\mathrm{a}H(e^{i \omega})=0$ for $\frac{-4\pi}{3}\le\omega\le\frac{\pi}{3}$ (which also means that it's zero for $\frac{2\pi}{3}\le\omega\le\frac{7\pi}{3}$), then I cannot see this spectrum widening into the negative frequency region (where $-\pi \le \omega \le 0$). The spectrum might be sufficiently narrow banded. I dunno. – robert bristow-johnson Oct 18 '25 at 04:50
  • I know that. I once lost a bounty because I was away from Stack Exchange during that critical 24 hours. I wanna prevent that debacle. If your answer is significantly more helpful I will choose it. To date, neither answer is as helpful as I had wished, but I might be wishing for the moon. – robert bristow-johnson Oct 18 '25 at 14:58
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    @robert bristow-johnson : I added my observation which may help. If I have time to observe more and get something more useful, I'll add. – mathlove Oct 18 '25 at 17:03
  • ". But I suspect there are many other signals". Positive chirp is the only other thing that came in my radar, which is not a simple sinusoid. Anyway appreciate your socialist concern to consider the poor engineer's rep on this math site ☺️ – Srini Oct 18 '25 at 17:15
  • I'm poorer than you @Srini (and an engineer). I'm still trying to figure out what to do. I got 21 hours. – robert bristow-johnson Oct 18 '25 at 22:23
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    Please award it to mathlove even if it's $+\epsilon %$ for them. I will earn it someday properly! – Srini Oct 19 '25 at 05:35
1

User mathlove presented one counter example. A simple search in any AI search gives many more counter examples. Such as $x[n]=2\cos[n]+\cos[5n]$ (the instantaneous frequency of the analytical version becomes negative for $n=2,3$, which I didn't rigorously verify).

In my opinion, the key point of OP's question to clarify for EE DSP engineers is: $\color{red}{\text{Is the instantaneous frequency of a signal mandatorily captured in the spectrum of the signal?}}$ The sign of spectrum range, sign of instantaneous frequency and as it applies to DTFT etc are all by-products of the answer to this question.

The Fourier Transform (CFT, DTFT etc) are infinite time averages of the frequency components (given by their amplitude and phase components). Therefore they kill the instantaneous frequency (rate of change of instantaneous phase) information. Therefore the key point to attack is your sentence "we really expect $\Omega_{n}$ to be positive because there are no frequency components in the analytic signal that are negative frequency.."

Hope I captured the essence of what the counter argument is. I am happy to rigorously provide counter examples that demonstrate this, in the spirit of mathlove's answer, but skipping it for a $10000$ feet zoomed out philosophical view.

Srini
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  • If you want a little more meat in my argument, take the case of FM (frequency modulation) with a specific example of modulating signal being a simple cosine and $f_c =2f_m$. The resulting FM has a continuous set of instantaneous frequencies that rise and fall sinusoidaly. But the spectrum is discrete because it's periodic in time domain. So obviously the continuous set of instantaneous frequencies did not get captured in the spectrum. So spectrum is not a collection of instantaneous frequencies. – Srini Oct 14 '25 at 03:57
  • Okay, I just got to this today. (Sorry about delay.) I understand the line spectrum of FM or PM with the sideband frequencies and the Bessel function governing the coefficients. I understand that a complex sinusoid (one-sided) can be PM modulated and get sideband frequencies that extend past positive frequencies into the negative. So it has an instantaneous frequency but it's not an analytic signal because it has negative frequency components. So we have a case of instantaneous frequency that is positive, but there are negative frequency components. My question is more about the reverse. – robert bristow-johnson Oct 15 '25 at 01:33
  • It's apparently not true (but I am hoping for more of a coherent condition for truth than just anecdotes for falsehood) but I'm sorta wondering that if it's an analytic signal, what elegant and compact conditions are necessary for the instantaneous frequency to be guaranteed to be positive. – robert bristow-johnson Oct 15 '25 at 01:37
  • Ok that makes sense, but changes your question. You might want to start another question with that intent. If I understand you right, you want a simpler condition than what you have shown through the sequence contained the imaginary part of the complex signal. Let me think about it. You might have better response at DSP stack exchange – Srini Oct 15 '25 at 03:07
  • I don't think I changed the question. The original question is: How can we know that $$0<\hat{x}n x{n-1} - x_n \hat{x}{n-1}$$ because when that is true, then we know that the instantaneous frequency $\Omega_n$ is this: $$0<\Omega_n<\pi$$ I am not asking directly how, given that there are no negative frequency components in ${}^\mathrm{a}X(e^{i\omega})$ (or at least none where $-\pi<\omega<0$), that we can know that $0<\Omega_n<\pi$. I am asking how we know that $0<\hat{x}_n x{n-1} - x_n \hat{x}_{n-1}$. But I guess there's no way and there are too many counter-examples. – robert bristow-johnson Oct 15 '25 at 04:29
  • "The Fourier Transform (CFT, DTFT etc) are infinite time averages of the frequency components (given by their amplitude and phase components). Therefore they kill the instantaneous frequency (rate of change of instantaneous phase) information." - - That's true. With the CFT or DTFT, time is integrated out. It's only a function of frequency. But the Hilbert transform is a sliding kernel and can be compared, loosely, to the Short-Time-Fourier-Transform (STFT) which is also a sliding kernel and time-dependent. So within the sliding window, a time-variant frequency parameter can be yanked out. – robert bristow-johnson Oct 15 '25 at 04:39
  • We agree that all analytical signals need not have positive instantaneous frequency. I did some reading on this subject to see if there is a subset of analytical signals that will always have positive IF. The limited reading seems to be that the signal has to be a mono component signal. Meaning either a tone or a positive chirp. More than one of these, no guarantees. – Srini Oct 15 '25 at 16:44
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$$0 < \sum\limits_{m=0}^{\infty} \frac{x_{n-1} x_{n-2m-1} - \ x_{n-1} x_{n+2m+1} - x_n x_{n-2m-2} + \ x_n x_{n+2m}}{2m+1} \qquad \forall n \in \mathbb{Z} $$

Suppose, for $m$ even, we could show that the numerator of the $m$th term is at least as large as the negative of the numerator of the $(m+1)$th term?

$$-\big(x_{n-1} x_{n-2(m+1)-1} \ - \ x_{n-1} x_{n+2(m+1)+1} \ - \ x_n x_{n-2(m+1)-2} \ + \ x_n x_{n+2(m+1)} \big) \\ \le \\ x_{n-1} x_{n-2m-1} \ - \ x_{n-1} x_{n+2m+1} \ - \ x_n x_{n-2m-2} \ + \ x_n x_{n+2m}$$

If we can show that for a general sinusoid where $0<\Omega<\pi$, would it not also be true for any sum of sinusoids?

Then every pair of terms, beginning with the first pair ($m=0,1$), would add to a positive value.

This is the beginning of an exploration. I dunno where it will lead. When the question is eligible for bounty, I think I'll put a bounty on it. As Srini suggested, the purpose is to prove for a general analytic signal (that has no negative frequency components) that the instantaneous frequency will always be positive. Maybe it's not true. But I would like to know either how it's true or how it's not.